[javascript-dev] Re: Re: Re: jsui was a mistake.

I'd like to say sorry, if I was steaming, or flaming.
Probably too much coffee. Forgiveness is requested.

> 
> It's not an either or question.
> 

My comments with regards to Javascript annihilation may seem fanatic.
ie:
"Person has grudge against language Javascript, wants to see it removed. Why would we ever do that?! ..when we can keep the javascript and just provide a better and more generic solution, allowing users to pick what is best for them? Person descends towards language X war. Person hasn't thought this through, person sees only their own selfish preference."

Well, it's not that,
It's something else.

>
> and we're looking at easier ways for anyone to
> make language bindings.
>

Speaking in such a way as I have in this thread walks the fine line between making your point, and coming off as a crackpot.
Yet such is what we must contend with in an closed-source project.

On the flip-side, Max's codified codebase is what makes it really special. Puredata is a mess of different UI solutions, a UI fork, incompatible UI externs with dependencies that went into unmaintained land, and heroic-yet-unconcerted-efforts to fix the problem-- all producing splinters in your hand.

There is a certain greatness about the way that Max/Msp users exchange patches here on the forums. It's a defining characteristic of this community. The unification has kept Max strong. People can help eachother, and build upon the pieces which have been contributed by those who came before them. I don't even know how many parts of my max setup have the evolutionary origin of something I saw in a bugpost. I love it.

That all goes out the window when you throw us into a cold-world of 9 languages. Max's connection is warm. You must think about this. Don't go cold.

I am saying, keep that same patch exchange culture alive with UI design. Keep it alive with a strong fast language.

There is an element of support to all of this. Shipping something with the Max box, having a PDF that comes along, having patchers and .JS files that people can take apart. Just like how the max help-patchers rock.

You can't support 9 languages, have 9 language forums, have a Tabula Rasa, have everyone become veritable multilinguists. There must be one which is fundamentally aligned with Max's IDEA, as a core piece, which has a strong identity and culture, that everybody can read and understand. And then the rest, for who needs em'.

I really believe that people will not try to read Mr.T's_three_thousand_nine_hundred_lines_of_ruby_code when they've focused entirely on another lang for the rest of their work. Well, somebody will. But the gestalt of how things turn out as dependent on previous innovations or posted techniques is very important. Max has a lot of technique to it-- but Mr. T's lines of code weren't learned from lines of code which incorporated drawing techniques and some knowledge gleaned from a forum reply which was learned from lines of code posted in a tip which was taken from a useful abstraction which came from an idea that was in a help file and... And so the Mr.T's-thingy they could possibly pull apart isn't as good as it could be in the first place.

Supporting language binding for those who need it, is a great thing. I'm glad you're looking into that. I couldn't possibly argue against it. In truth, of course, I never actually felt that Javascript should be removed from Max. But simply unsupported, and moved into the "pile of languages" category. But for supported? Javascript isn't good enough to deserve that spot. Javascript isn't the one that's good enough for us all to get behind. If you haven't noticed already.

This whole problem is what has been keeping people from building sequencers in Max/Msp for ten years. The occurrences are few and far between, because there isn't a buildup of components.

It's all about the culture.
If I had my druthers, Lua would be the kick-ass UI design language of Max/Msp, Javascript and any other number of languages would be supported via extended language binding.

Yours,
- Invect